The Bodega Master with Manuel Louzada (TCGS S4 E3)

# AI Transcript (please excuse any typos): TCGS S4 E3 The Bodega Master with Manuel Louzada 

Announcer:
Jonathan Pogash is the cocktail guru, a mixologist and hospitality expert. Ah, see? You know big words. Dude, I'm the cocktail guru. Cheers. Jeffrey's his dad, a wine and spirits author, historian, and consultant.

Jeffrey:
So, I do my homework.

Announcer:
With decades of experience, they're always looking for the next big thing. Join this father and son duo for a few laughs as they explore the hottest trends in hospitality with the service industry's leading trailblazers and tastemakers. Welcome to the Cocktail Guru Show.

Jonathan:
Wine is where you got your start in the industry. Isn't that right, dad?

Jeffrey:
It is, John. I am, for the first, 18 years of my career, I was a wine person, even though we're doing a podcast called The Cocktail Guru, I was always a wine person, first and foremost. But then during the last 18 years of my career, I was both wines and spirits and cocktails. Was there something? I cut my teeth on wine because I studied with a guy named Steven Spurrier in Paris. who was responsible for the judgment of Paris, that great tasting that changed the world of wine, not just in California, because California wines beat French wines in that tasting, but wine consumption all over the world changed because of Stephen Spurrier and that tasting.

Jonathan:
Now, was there something in you in your formidable years, your teenage years, that drew you to this business? I mean, we've talked about it before, just like family, family conversations. But, you know, you studied, you basically studied abroad in Paris. And while you were there, you discovered your sort of love of wine?

Jeffrey:
Yes, the answer to your question is, no, there was nothing in my early childhood or teenage years that would have led me into the wine industry. It was strictly my trip to Paris, which changed my entire life professionally and personally, because as you know, Jonathan, I met your mother during that stay in Paris.

Jonathan:
That's right. So I think that that may have. So I wonder, you know, meeting my mom and, you know, falling in love probably solidified your your, you know, your your pursuit of the industry, because you're probably thinking to yourself, well, maybe I wouldn't have met, you know, the love of my life had I not been pursuing this this industry.

Jeffrey:
Right. Well, there's no question that I fell in love with wine and your mother. at the same time. So it was a life-changing experience to spend, it turned out to be four years, three or four years in Paris, which led me into this wonderful 52-year career in the wine and spirits industry.

Jonathan:
And we have an actual real live winemaker on the podcast today that we're going to be chatting with. So you want to introduce him, Dad?

Jeffrey:
Well, when I met this fine gentleman, he was a winemaker. Right now, his position is CEO. He is the CEO. He has graduated well beyond winemaking, although he is still an extremely talented winemaker. This is a very personal episode for me, because this gentleman was someone I loved working with. I met him when I went to Portugal for the first time. This was on a business trip, and I was there to learn about a port wine house called Roses, and this gentleman whose name is Manuel Louzada was the winemaker for Rosés. And I became enthralled with what he was doing. He was making great vintage ports and tawny ports. And we ended up, after a year or so, ended up working together because I would take this fellow, Manuel Louzada, on trips throughout the United States to meet with journalists. And on one of those trips, we wined and dined journalists in restaurants all over the United States from New York to California, to San Francisco, and drinking nothing but port and dining on fine food along the way. Manuel Hurtado, welcome. Welcome.

Charles:
Very good to see you, Jeffrey. It's a pleasure to see you, as always. And you exaggerate all the time that we see each other, for God's sake. You should keep it a little bit shorter because you make me blush at some point.

Jeffrey:
Not at all. Everything I say is true and all merited You are a legend in the industry already, even though you're a young man still.

Charles:
I wish I was a little bit younger anyway, but it's okay. And I remember the first time that I met Jonathan, it was in New York a few years ago at the Russian... Remember that? The Russian Tea Room? Yes, indeed. This was a couple of years ago already, as you may imagine.

Jonathan:
Wow. That was quite a long time ago.

Jeffrey:
Yes. And I think it's possible that you met Jonathan even before that, when he was a young youngster. I think it's possible that you did. It's very likely.

Charles:
It's very likely. Anyway, it's good to see you again, Jonathan, after such a long time.

Jeffrey:
Yes, good to see you. But tell us about this great winery called Almaviva, whose wines I have been drinking, fortunately, fairly, not often enough, but enough to become enthralled with the winery and the wines that are produced at Almaviva since, I believe, 1997. Is that right?

Charles:
1996. Let me tell you a little bit of the story behind my relationship with Almaviva. It was a long time ago. I was still at Moët Hennessy at the time. We were starting a project in Argentina called Cheval des Zones. which is a joint venture between Terrazas de Los Andes and Cheval Blanc. And at some point, the CEO of Cheval Blanc, Pierre Louroton, a very good friend of mine still, and he used to tell me every time that you come through Chile, because Mendoza is very close to the Chilean border, so it was easier to go through Chile to the US and to travel all over. And he always said, you have to have a bottle of Almaviva. So on each and every tasting, we started this project on the year 2000. On each of every tasting, we had a bottle of Alma Viva. And I got to know a little bit of the story because it was the benchmark from a style standpoint, as well as from the brand itself. And I started to know a little bit more about the brand. And since then, kind of I fell in love. And then afterwards, the good thing was that I had the chance to come back to Chile and to be in charge of this winery. I would say a profound alliance between two historical wine families. So on one hand, you have Baron Philippe de Rothschild, founded in 1853, also the founder, the part founder of Opus 1 in the US. And then afterwards, you have the Conchet-Toro family that was founded in 1883. A very long tradition of knowing the best terroirs in Chile. So basically, they came together with the knowledge of terroir from Baron, from Conchet-Toro. and the French Savoir-Faire, they came up with this project called Amaviva, a beautiful project, making exceptional wines with the, I would say, with the character of Chile, but at the same time, with pursuit of elegance of the best wines from Bordeaux. So since then, since the year 2000, I had the chance to taste this wine and, you know, kind of fell in love. And in 2019, when I received, I'm sorry, 2015, when I received the phone call to, you know, be involved on the process in 2018 or 2019. And then I got to, you know, got immediately interested on the possibility of being in charge of this amazing winery with exceptional wines and amazing story as you know.

Jeffrey:
That's wonderful because I, of course, had been drinking wines from Baron Philippe de Rochille for years whenever I had the opportunity to do that and drinking wines from Conchititoro, which I love, the Don Melchor wines in particular, I absolutely adore. And bringing these two great wine families together is just an amazing feat and something that all wine lovers have much to be thankful for and grateful to. because these are some of the best wines that you can find anywhere in the world right now, Alma Viva, and Epu.

Charles:
Oh, you still have one of the old bottles, for God's sake, fantastic.

Jeffrey:
I have Epu 2000, the 2000 vintage, the first vintage of Epu, and I'm saving it so that I can drink it with you one of these days, Manuel.

Charles:
Happy to do that. I haven't tasted it yet. The 2000 year, April is our, so within the spirit, one of the things that the French brought into Chile was what they call the, um, what they call the shuttle concept. Okay. So you have one winery, you have one team, you have one vineyard dedicated to produce exceptional wine. The exceptional wine is called in French, as Jeff knows, it's called the Grand Vin. But then afterwards, there's what they usually say, the Second Vin or Second Wine, which is basically done with the vineyards that have been replanted with the Probably some of the terroir that are a little bit richer and therefore you have a little bit more of vigor, a little bit more of yields. And with that in mind, you have a little bit less of concentration. And from time to time, the smoothness of the tannins is slightly different. So you used to produce what they call the second vine. Well, with this in mind, époux means number two in Mapudungun. And we started it in the year 2000. It was done only in two years. So 2000, 2001. stopped for five years so that the focus would be in Almaviva until 2006. And since 2006 until 2019, it was only sold in Chile and Brazil. For some reason, Mr. Pogac, you had the chance to take one bottle of 2000 with you to the US.

Jeffrey:
That's because I bought this in the days when we were able to carry wine back with us on the airplane. without any trouble. So I used to bring back a great deal of Chilean wine every time I made a trip down there. And that's how I was able to acquire this bottle. And I never opened it. I saved it for posterity so that I could drink it with my great friend Manuel Lozada.

Charles:
Yes, so that we have another bottle, you know, as Rémy Cru used to say, the best place to keep a bottle of wine is in your memory. Yes. So that we have another memory with a good bottle of wine. What do you think?

Jeffrey:
Exactly. Precisely. And we will do that, I hope, in the very, very near future. Yes. The wines of Almaviva and Époux are made with essentially Cabernet Sauvignon, Cabernet Franc, Carmenère, Merlot, and Petit Verre d'Eau. Is that right?

Charles:
Yes. So basically, you know the story about the Carmenera in Chile. The Carmenera was planted in the middle of the Merlot vineyards. And actually, it's a fantastic story because it was a different expression. It's a grape variety that has a longer cycle than the Merlot. But for some reason, they were kept all mixed up. And so, you know, until 96, until 1996, was recently the 30th anniversary, 94 actually, it was the 30th anniversary of rediscovery of Carmenera, because the Carmenera was brought to Chile in the middle of 19th century, prior to the phylloxera attack that devastated the vineyards, this terrible bug that devastated the vineyards all over Europe. And it adapted so well here that you have the most exceptional Carmeneras from Chile. It's like the Malbec in Argentina. So with that in mind, our wines now, Alla Viva today is mainly Cabernet Sauvignon, roughly two thirds, around 20, 25% of Carménère and a little bit of Cabernet Franc and Petit Verlot. Merlot is because, you know, with this change on the climate that we had over the years or that's slightly warmer, the Merlot here has slightly different expression. So it's a little bit more ripened and that's why it's used exclusively on Époux on this day. So yes, that's our vineyard is mainly Cabernet Sauvignon, Carménère, Cabernet Franc, Petit Verdot and 0.67 hectares of Merlot that I usually use for Époux.

Jeffrey:
And an old mutual friend of ours named Michel Friou is the winemaker.

Charles:
Yes, indeed. You met Michel Friou from your times at Ploa Palta.

Jeffrey:
At Casa La Postol, yes.

Charles:
Yes, Casa La Postol and Ploa Palta. And in 2007, he decided to come and live in Santiago de Chile, not in Santa Cruz, which is a couple of hours south of where we are. And with that in mind, Michel Friou, a brilliant winemaker, not only, you know, a brilliant winemaker, exceptional person, and on top of that, very passionate and dedicated to the wines that he makes. And Michel has been working with us since 2007. And, you know, making the wine in a way that precision has been key. You know, on exceptional wines, the only way that you have to improve step by step on the quality year after year with learning curve that you have from the previous years. And this is you have to be extremely humble because this is what one of the things that you learn in the wine business is that nature has a lot of character. Let's put it this way. And every year you have to, you know, fine tune the tools that you use, the termination of date of harvest, winemaking techniques to translate that into an exceptional wine. So the detail, level of detail and precision that you have to go to reassure a wine like 2015 that had 100 points and it was wine of the year or 2017, 100 points and wine of the decade by James Suckling. You know, with all this in mind, precision is what makes you go step by step. Probably initially, you know, when you're making a wine, you have a kind of an exponential growth on the quality, but once you reach a certain level of quality, it's precision what makes the difference.

Jeffrey:
And for those people who may not be that familiar with Chile and Chilean wine, you are blessed with a pretty wonderful and stable climate in Chile, are you not?

Charles:
Yes, we are, particularly where we are. I would say where we are. In the Maipo Valley, it's extremely, extremely, it's very stable, let's put it this way. We had, until two years ago, so 2024, 2023, we had a little bit more of rainfall, but the previous five years were extremely dry. There was a very strong drought here. But we have seen something, you know, I was talking about being humble with the nature and you know that, for example, in Bordeaux or in other regions, you have macro climate fluctuations that change the expression of the vintage. Well, here in Chile, because of that consistency, it's kind of a micro climate conditions smaller but have a magnificent that have a significant impact on the on the quality and on the expression. You know we did a vertical tasting recently out of the 25 years of Alma Viva and it was the difference of each vintage is marked the character of each vintage is marked And it's probably only because of the, I don't know, if the average temperature was one degree less than the historical 1.5 degrees or if it was a rainfall at the end of January or if it was, you know, east of this individual small climate factors that change the expression and mark the character. We're not here on these wines, we're not here to make a wine that's stable all over the years. We're here to translate the expression of each individual vintage into the wines.

Jeffrey:
And I'd like to... I was just going to say, the vineyard is Puente Alto, correct? Yes, indeed. We take grapes for Alma Viva. Yes. And I'd like to... Yes, go ahead.

Jonathan:
Sorry.

Charles:
Now, so basically trying to make a little bit of the long story short, I had the chance to make wines all over the world. So I was involved with California, I was involved with Brazil, with Argentina, with New Zealand, with Australia, and right at the beginnings with India and China. But let's put it this way, there are a few places where you can count with the fingers of your hand, where you have exceptional expressions of a Cabernet Sauvignon for blending. One, of course, is Poyac in France. I would say Napa Valley for the United States. And the third one would be, not to change the order of importance, okay, please don't get me wrong, but another one would be Ponte Alto in Chile. We have this exceptional quality of Cabernet Sauvignon with the beautiful ripeness, beautiful vibrancy and beautiful freshness.

Jonathan:
And Manuel, I'd like to talk about your journey to where you are today, but we're going to take a quick break first and we'll be right back.

SPEAKER_00:
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Jonathan:
At the Cocktail Guru, it's all about the experience. We want our clients to taste and feel the aroma, the temperature, the flavor, to make memories when they try our cocktails. The Cocktail Guru was born in 2006, when there was a need for high-quality cocktails, bartender training, and expertly crafted drinks for special events. Then, the Guru team moved to Massachusetts and expanded nationally. We even provide cocktail demonstrations on morning television institutions, like the Today Show. Consider the Guru team for all of your events. Corporate clients enjoy our entertaining team-building exercises. Bachelorette mixology classes are fun for everyone. We can craft a signature cocktail bar for any occasion. Plus, the Guru team can design cost-effective beverage programs with staff training for any bar or restaurant. And be sure to join us for the Cocktail Guru podcast, where we regularly interview some of the hospitality industry's best. So why not consider the Cocktail Guru for your next project? Cheers! And now we're back. So as my father has had quite a journey into the wine industry, was there sort of a moment or a defining experience that kind of shaped your career, led you to where you are?

Charles:
There are, I would say several, it's difficult to say one, but there's one that's extremely important. I'm 55 years old. I've been for 50 years in the wine business. And that's a very simple reason. My grandfather, when I was a kid, he always say, Wine is part of the European culture, of our culture in Portugal, so it has to be part of our education. So I was left with this amount, okay, I don't know, I'm not sure if you can see it, but with this amount of wine in the glass and I started tasting at the age of five and since then, I knew exactly what I wanted to be, and I knew that I wanted to be a winemaker. So that was the first one. Then the second one was a little bit later in my life, at the end of my 20s, beginning of the 30s, when I was invited to go to Argentina, I was in charge. Jonathan, this is when I met your father. in Portugal I was in charge of a winery called Rosés, Porto Rosés, and this was a very interesting moment in my life because someone thought for some reason, you know, Moet Hennessy decided to sell Rosés and someone thought it would be a good reason for me to move from port wine, okay, which is one direction, to be in charge of sparkling wine, which is exactly the other, okay? And I'm really pointing on the two opposite directions. And so it was good for me because, you know, from a plasticity standpoint in your brain, the only thing in common was the art of blending, okay? It was the capacity of blending. But one, you'd blend you would use to blend massive wines and on the other one you would use the most delicate wines. This was the second moment in my career. I would say that the third one would be at Numantia Thermantia, so when I was invited to go to Toro and to be in charge of this exceptional, exceptional winery that had a lot of recognition. The Toro region is unique, you know that's spain we're talking about spain yes yes that's spain and it's exceptional regions very uh it's almost a desert it's almost a desert very tough but spectacular wines and last but not the least i would say alma viva was that was the last one to come here and to be involved on making these exceptional wines with the experience with the knowledge of the terroir, getting to know, listen, this in winemaking, you're always learning, okay? This is never, it's a never ending story. So everywhere that you go and every year with a different expression, you start to learn and understand what's happening in the vineyards and then afterwards take that into the wine. Still a lot to learn.

Jeffrey:
The same with those of us who are wine, mere wine tasters rather than wine makers. We have to go through the same journey and it's never ending and there's always something to learn every single day.

Charles:
That's why you have to keep practicing El Fenfe.

Jeffrey:
Yes, I do. I've been tasting quite a few wines since we last saw each other, Manuel, but especially in the last few months as I consult with Jonathan and put together wine lists for restaurants. So I really have to keep up with what's going on out there.

Jonathan:
Well, I think winemaking and just the wine industry in general can be deeply personal and kind of a creative pursuit. And it sounds like it's become that for you, Manuel. What does it mean, if we can ask, on a personal level? What does wine and being in the industry mean on a personal level?

Charles:
Well, for me, there are two things. First of all, it's my passion. I'm very open and very transparent. It's my passion. It's the way of looking at life. And basically because of one thing that I believe. It's difficult to say, and there's a lot of questions when you talk about wine, about the art of winemaking. But if you don't want to go that far, for me, it's one of the most exciting creative exercises that I can do. So just to give you an idea, I cannot sing. I'm horrible at singing. I cannot play a single instrument in my life, nothing. I cannot paint anything, drawing, whatever. For me, to imagine what's going to be like a certain wine in 10 years from now inside a bottle or in 20 years from now and then afterwards go back and then go backwards and try to imagine you know try to think knowing the terroir conditions that you have knowing the individual expression of each vintage is to try to take the right decisions to pursue that vision that you have for the wine in 20 years. So, you know, and on top of that, it's a living being. It's not something that you create and it stays in the bottle and it's going to be exactly like you had in your mind. It's a living being. It evolves in one direction from time, you know, you think this is the vineyards that I'm going to use. Okay. Harvest at the moment that you believe it has all the... Once you cut the grapes, that's it. That's what you're going to get in the wine. So, you know, you start, you do the winemaking process. And when you do the winemaking process in a way that you translate what you had in the vineyard, because that's the first step of your vision. Then the aging in barrel, again, another element that you put together. And then afterwards, as it goes into the bottle and it stays in the bottle as it ages, as all the elements integrate. I imagine that, I don't know, 5, 6, 7, 8 centuries ago, it would be the same for a painter that would think and would understand perfectly the components that he would use, for example, to paint, and then he would use these elements and the interaction that he would think between the different elements to get to a certain painting, to a certain image. Now, in our case, that image evolves with time and as it ages in the bottom. And not every time, you know, I learned this from back in Argentina, not every time has the best expression as it should. So from time to time, it's a little bit more discreet and from time to time, it's a little bit more exuberant. So it's a fantastic exercise. Let's let's do this.

Jeffrey:
Yes, and you are one of the most talented winemakers out there. So it's a joy and a delight to drink the final product that you produce.

Charles:
My pleasure. My pleasure to share. That's the second thing that you learn in the wine business. Wine is to share. Yep.

Jeffrey:
Absolutely. And, and I share, I share the passion. I think that's why we get along so well, Manuel. For sure. For sure. It's been around 25 years, I think, since we've known each other.

Charles:
And, uh, Why do you look better every time?

Jeffrey:
Well, we don't get to see each other that often, unfortunately, but I hope that we will continue. And you know what I think of? When I think of you, Manuel, I think of Andres Segovia. Do you know why? There is a symphony in which he plays guitar called Fantasia para un gentilhombre, right? Forgive my Spanish. Fantasia for a Gentleman. And I always think of you, Manuel Lozada, when I hear that symphony and hear Segovia play the guitar so beautifully. You are an artist in your own right.

Charles:
Thank you.

Jeffrey:
You're welcome.

Jonathan:
Well, I've come to realize that as well, just from this short conversation. And I think it's really great, the passion involved. I mean, of course, spirits producers and spirits makers have passion, but in a way, I feel like wine is a little bit different. Because when I hear my dad talk about wine, and throughout my entire life, I've heard him talk about wine, and then he loves talking about it to other people as well. But the amount of passion that's involved with that is different, I think, than the passion that's involved with spirits, specifically. That's just my take.

Charles:
Well, you know, I think it's a slightly different level because it's taken a little bit forward on the process. But I've met some very interesting people that's dedicated to spirits as well, particularly on the whiskeys, that it's very passionate as well. you know, that they feel it's their own. So, you know, there are some spirits that I believe that's a stronger connection than others. And you can sense once you talk to the people, to the master distiller or to the master blender, you can still also have some part of that love for what they do.

Jeffrey:
Yes, for example, whiskey and bourbon as opposed to, let's say, vodka.

Jonathan:
Yeah, right. But in a way, I mean, very little happens in a bottle of spirit once it's bottled. But I feel like with wine, there is more that happens within the bottle after, you know, in the bottle itself. So as far as a living product, like you were saying before, there's a little bit more life to wine than to spirits. Totally agree. No doubt on that.

Jeffrey:
And you get to taste and analyze it at different stages of its life.

Charles:
Yes. Yes, indeed.

Jonathan:
Well, this has been a really wonderful conversation, Manuel. We're so thankful that you've been able to spend some time with us. And it's been great hearing from you. So thank you so much.

Jeffrey:
This was a very personal episode for me, Manuel, because you are a dear friend, one of the two dearest friends that I have in the wine and spirits industry. So thank you for joining us today and spending time talking to us.

Charles:
It was all my pleasure, Jeffrey, and you know that we had to make this happen, my friend. So, you know, it didn't matter if I wasn't entirely there, it didn't matter. We had to do this because I have a... Jonathan, I've known your father for quite a long time and it's a pleasure. I would not miss this ever in my life. So, you know, thank you so much. Thank you so much, you both, for the time, for making the time and for having me. Always a pleasure.

Jeffrey:
Thank you, Manuel. Manuel Louzada, CEO of Vina Alma Viva.

Announcer:
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