Coffee Unleashed with Kelly Abbott (TCGP S3 E17)

# AI Transcript: TCGP S3 E18 The Coffee Connoisseur: A Deep Dive into Specialty Coffee with Kelly Abbott

Announcer:
Jonathan Pogash is the cocktail guru, a mixologist and hospitality expert. See, you know big words. Dude, I'm the cocktail guru. Cheers. Jeffrey's his dad, a wine and spirits author, historian and consultant.

Jeffrey:
I do my homework.

Announcer:
With decades of experience, they're always looking for the next big thing. Join this father and son duo for a few laughs as they explore the hottest trends in hospitality with the service industry's leading trailblazers and tastemakers. Welcome to the Cocktail Guru Podcast.

Jonathan:
There's some heat happening. Oh, yes.

Jeffrey:
We've gone from warm to tropical. We're now in my part of the world is getting tropical. but it's still okay. It's not horrendously humid yet, but it's still okay. So it's fine weather for drinking. Coffee.

Jonathan:
Yes, it is. Listen, I love a morning cup of Joe. I love my iced coffee. I went out, well, no, I actually, I brewed my own, coffee, and then I stuck it in the refrigerator. And, you know, that coffee brand is actually the person who created it is our guest today. So, but it was really delicious. And it's in my fridge chilling right now. And I usually I put a little oat milk in there. How do you drink your coffee?

Jeffrey:
I drink it always black. Black.

Jonathan:
Has that always been the case ever since you started drinking coffee?

Jeffrey:
Since I was 18 years old. I've been drinking coffee black. I started in, I guess in high school, maybe I was 17 when I started drinking coffee. And then in college, I became a regular coffee. Well, regular meaning just in the morning, morning coffee drinker. And there I decided, you know, I kept drinking coffee, liked the flavor, didn't ever put milk or sugar in it, just black. And now that I'm buying specialty coffees, and now that I've become a coffee aficionado, I'd like to think I am anyway, you know, having studied the subject with my mentor, I still continue, of course, to drink specialty coffees, single origin coffees, black, nothing, no milk, no sugar, no, I wouldn't, I wouldn't denature really good coffee that way.

Jonathan:
No, no, of course not. And, you know, we don't only talk about cocktails and wine and beer and food on this podcast, but we also don't discriminate. And we love talking about that good old Java coffee.

Jeffrey:
Yes. And we're talking about specialty coffee today. We're not going to remain mysterious. We're talking about a roaster in Vacaville, California. A friend of ours, Kelly Abbott, who is the CEO and the owner of Unleashed. specialty coffee roasters, all the way, all the way from Vacaville, California. Welcome, Kelly.

Kelly:
Good day, gentlemen. How are you?

Jonathan:
Dad's in the middle of drinking coffee. You're a coffee right now. We're doing well. And we must say that your coffee is fabulous. It's delicious. We've been enjoying it. And we're very curious to learn about how coffee came into your life. Yes.

Jeffrey:
By the way, I'm drinking the Unleashed Harvest blend here, which is absolutely delicious.

Kelly:
So the harvest blend is, of course, the best of the harvest, right? That's the name. But the current harvest is a blend of Brazil and Guatemala. Those are my two primary farmers. And so that's what I blended together.

Jeffrey:
That's why the richness is there and the acidity is there at the same time. Both beautiful balance between richness and acidity. Fabulous.

Kelly:
I'm so glad you're enjoying it.

Jeffrey:
Loving it. Thank you. Loving it. We have some every morning.

Jonathan:
Kelly, we always ask our guests on the podcast this one question before we kind of get into it. What is your desert island drink?

Kelly:
Desert island drink. Well, that doesn't seem like it should be hot, right? But it could be it. No, I mean, it could be hot, you know, anything. Well, I mean, I am definitely a coffee lover and I do generally drink hot coffee, not cold. Although in the summer months, I've been known to drink cold coffee. But I'm one of those, I can drink coffee hot, whether it's hot or cold outside. Whereas my husband and both my daughters are all about cold coffee all the time, even if it's 30 degrees outside. But I'm not. So I'm going to just have to say coffee. And depending on, I mean, if it's morning, maybe I'll have a hot one. And if it's 100 million degrees outside on the desert island, maybe I'll switch over to a cold brew.

Jeffrey:
Well, I'm a hot coffee drinker myself, but Jonathan loves the cold brews. But I think I might, with this weather, start treating myself to some unleashed iced coffee.

Jonathan:
Iced coffee? Dad, you are going to add ice to your coffee?

Jeffrey:
I've had iced coffee in the past. But yes, I think I will start doing that.

Jonathan:
You're adulterating the coffee.

Jeffrey:
You're really good. Not true. Really good coffee.

Kelly:
I have a question for you, Jeffrey. Do you know how to properly make an iced coffee?

Jeffrey:
Probably not. Tell me. Tell us, Kelly, please.

Kelly:
There's the difference between iced coffee and cold brew coffee. Jonathan, do you know the difference? No, no. I stumped the guru. This is amazing.

Jeffrey:
Well, he's not the coffee guru.

Kelly:
This is true. So when you when you brew iced coffee, you're going to brew it hot over ice. And when you do cold brew, it's going to be a cold brew the entire way. Oh, yes. Oh, so how could we not know? Well, and then to the other trick is it's not just hot coffee over ice because then it will be too diluted. So you need to either half the amount of water or double the amount of coffee grounds because you're going to be pouring it over ice, which is, of course, going to melt with the hot coffee brewing. All right. So I usually do half the amount of water just because it doesn't change my measurement on the grounds too much. But you can really do it either way. But on the cold brew, that's going to be a 12 to 24 hour brew cycle. And it generally turns out as a concentrate that you then add some more water to, to taste after the 12 to 24 hours. And the difference really is, are you brewing it at room temperature or are you brewing it in the fridge? You're brewing it colder, you're going to do it longer in the fridge just so that it has the extraction time. But then too, your iced coffee, you're going to get more of the acidity, Jeffrey, that I think you're enjoying in the hot coffee because the heat pulls that out. Whereas the cold brew doesn't. So if you're somebody who has like acid reflux or problems with acidity, cold brew might be your go-to.

Jeffrey:
Very interesting.

Jonathan:
Kelly, I have a question. How did you get into the coffee industry? What kind of piqued your interest? And you were like, yes, this is something that I want to pursue.

Kelly:
Well, I was a teacher, a school teacher for more than 20 years. And I am of the firm belief that teachers do not survive without coffee. And I would warn my children, Mrs. Abbott hasn't had her coffee this morning. So be on your best behavior till recess when I can go to the staff room. Right. But it's survival juice for for teachers. But growing up, my dad always drank black coffee, just like Jeffrey, although he wasn't very particular. He'll drink. He would have drank any coffee as long as it was coffee. Whereas my mom drank a little bit of coffee with her cream and sugar. And so when I first started drinking coffee in college, when, you know, the coffeehouse scene was first becoming popular, um, I was all about the caramel macchiato with all that junk in it. Right. And it actually, my very first. Coffeehouse drink that I liked was the mocha because I'm a chocolate fan too. But then when I learned of the caramel macchiato, I'm like, Ooh, this one's pretty good. But as I have matured. And you probably find this a lot too with drinking wine and spirits, but your palate changes, right? So I became more mature in my coffee drinking and I tend to drink it much more black than I used to. I don't drink it black all the time, but I definitely do when I'm roasting and doing testing so that I can actually taste the flavors of the coffees. But then, you know, you do want to pair it with milk or almond milk or something so that you can see how well it does pair because it does obviously change the flavor. But yeah, I can't drink a macchiato anymore. It's not coffee. I mean, there's coffee in it, but I would consider it a dessert now. I would not consider it a coffee drink.

Jeffrey:
You just got me thinking about my favorite coffee blend, possibly of all time. And I use the word cautiously. It's not the way the term was just used. It is mocha, but it's true mocha from Yemen, I believe, right? And Java from the island of Java, the blend of mocha and Java. When I was becoming interested in coffee, that was a common blend at specialty coffee shops. There weren't that many specialty coffee shops, but there were some in Boston that I used to go to and mocha Java was one of the blends that I used to order and I just loved it, fell in love with it, and then I started buying it and brewing it at home as well. And there's nothing better, I don't think, than... It could be either... It could be pure mocha or pure java as well. It doesn't have to be blended, but the blend is delicious as well. So that's among my favorites. Another is Kenya AA. These are all specific single-origin

Jonathan:
Yeah, that's funny. I remember that. I remember those terms, Dad, from growing up, because I feel like you were an early adopter of specialty craft coffee. I'd like to think so.

Jeffrey:
Because of my mentor, who Kelly may or may not know, George Howell, is my coffee mentor.

Kelly:
I mean, I haven't met him personally.

Jeffrey:
From Boston.

Jonathan:
We interviewed him. We interviewed him.

Jeffrey:
I used to hang out in his coffee shops Um, and then I was fortunate enough to meet him and he invited me to his offices for cuppings. So I, he became my coffee mentor and that's why I'm so into it today. And now with Unleashed Coffee to boot, things are even better. Things are lively and rich and delicious. And I know that you at Unleashed have different levels of roast that you offer to the public. You have a light roast, you have a medium roast, and you have dark roast, and you have espresso blends in roasting as well. So those are the, it looks like the primary coffee packages that you have available to the public?

Kelly:
So the only, well I don't want to see the only blend. Technically the half-calf is a blend because it's half decaf and half regular. Um, so that one's a blend too, but generally the only blend that I have is the harvest blend. Everything else is pretty much single origin. Every once in a while I'll throw something else into my espresso. Um, but primarily I use a Mundo Novo bean from Brazil for the espresso. Um, and the espresso profile that I have, I learned from a Slovakian roaster who's my predecessor. When I, I didn't start the company. I purchased it in 2021 from a Brazilian farmer and a Slovakian roaster who had started it as a way to bring the Brazilian farmer's family's coffee from Brazil to the United States without the use of intermediaries. Back in 2012, they had experienced a not so great experience, I guess, with the cooperative that they were working with. The president of the cooperative stole everybody's coffee that year and sold it off, and they nearly lost everything. So he decided he was going to figure out how to get coffee from Brazil to the U.S. without a cooperative or any other intermediaries other than logistics, because obviously you have to get it on a boat and get it here. But even that, he was very intricately he played a very intricate role in coordinating all of those things. So anyway, back to the Slovakian roaster, you don't argue with the European about how espresso should taste. I could just kind of have a firm belief in that. And he said when he married a woman from California, and when he moved here, he said our espresso was not good. And I said, yeah, I mean, if you think about it, how many people go into a chain, I'll say chain, because if you go to Independence, you might see this more, but how many people go into a chain coffee shop and ask for just a shot of espresso? You like never see it, right? Might be a shot and a 16 ounce cup with a bunch of other stuff in it, right? Because you're hiding the fact that the espresso is not perfect. I'll say not right. It could be over-roasted, could be over-brewed, could be under-brewed. So he came up with, he spent six months working on this profile and he taught it to me. And when I bought the company from them, that was like the one profile that I was really concerned about mastering because I felt like there was a following of customers that had come to expect this profile. And what it is, is it's a slightly smoother finish, so it doesn't have that real bitter bite at the end that makes you cringe when you have just a shot of espresso. You should be able to sit down and have a shot of espresso and have a smooth finish and not have your face pucker. But I think most of the time in this country, you end up with a face pucker and that's why nobody orders it that way. That's why we get, you know, two shots and 16 ounces of milk so that the milk can neutralize that. Um, but it's not my darkest roast. It's my second darkest roast because I have one that's a little bit darker that has a little bit of the bitters, but bitters, good bitters, not bitters that make your face cringe. Right. And then, um, Then I did a second one, which is our, so the darkest one I have is the farm blend. And that one technically is a blend, but still single origin because the definition of single origin is coming from one place. And the farm blend are several beans, several different varietals from the same farm. So it's a farm blend, but it's still single origin. And then I started the Morondo, and that's basically because I brought in another farmer from Guatemala, and I wanted to do the espresso with that. And when I changed the beans, I had a specific customer who had been with the company for a long time, and he could tell. He could tell that I switched them from Brazil to Guatemalan, and primarily because the Guatemalans are grown 1,000 feet higher, and when you grow them higher, they are denser, and then when you grind them, it grinds differently. And he could tell because he he's this engineering type. And he had done all this really fancy work with his grinder, and he had it all dialed in. And he said, you change the beans. So I came out with the Miranda so that I could have an espresso profile with the espresso from Brazil, and one for the Guatemalan. So that's basically I have three different dark roasts. And then I figured, well, I might as well, you know, keep with the trend. So I do have three lights, three mediums, three darks, and then a half-calf and a decaf. And then I do a decaf as an espresso profile and also as a medium. So I was trying to find something for everybody.

Jonathan:
So hopefully I did. Kelly, I have a question. Maybe it's a rumor, but I'd like to clear up that rumor. But we're going to take a quick break and we'll

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Jonathan:
And now we're back. It's not really a rumor. It's just something that I've heard. But I need someone in the coffee industry to clear it up for me. Dark roast equals less caffeine. Light roast equals more caffeine. Is that correct? Or is there like, is it a gray line?

Kelly:
It's yes and no. And I'll tell you why. Okay. UC Davis, which is about 20 minutes up the road from me. They have now a big coffee lab, first in the country. And they do a lot of work. There's a whole coffee program there now, just like their wine and beer programs. And they're doing all this research. So during COVID, when nobody had anything to do, right, they were doing some of these studies. And the study came out, I want to say probably about two years ago now, and I really need to find it again so that I can cite it directly. But it was fascinating because that's what everybody believes. And a lot of people don't know that. They think strong coffee equals dark coffee. But as you know, when you bake with alcohol, it bakes out, right? So when you roast coffee, the caffeine roasts off, but not completely like it does with alcohol. However, the beans start really dense and small when you drop them in as green beans. When you get to light roast, they start to expand like popcorn, right? And we even have what's called first crack and second crack. And it's when the heat inside the beans starts moving outwards until it gets to the very outer, and then it just kind of does a pop or a crack, and you can hear it. It's an audible sound. And it generally, on the roaster I use, comes in around 390 degrees. And any point from there on is something that you could drink. So once it hits first crack, that's going to be your light roast. So if you, if you drop the beans out at that point and you're done with the roast, you have still a relatively dense bean. So the size is still relatively small compared to if you let it keep roasting, it's going to expand more. And eventually it hits second crack. Um, if it gets past second crack, it gets really, um, You get more of the chars and the smoky flavors and a lot more oils come out. And I don't like coffee like that. I think it's really hard to drink it black that way. So I don't go past second crack. But those beans now weigh less and they are larger in size. They each have individually, each bean has less caffeine than its light roast counterpart. However, if I take a scoop of that coffee in whole bean form, and I grind it down and make coffee and I take a scoop of the light roast and do the same, I have more caffeine in the light roast because I have less beans that have more caffeine each. Does that make sense? Because of the volume. But if you grind it and then weigh it, Right? Because now you're going to need more dark roast beans to make up the same weight. Right. Per gram. Per gram. And then you're going to have more beans that have less caffeine each. So it becomes kind of a wash. So the studies that they did at Davis pretty much said if you grind it and weigh it and prepare your coffee that way, it's a wash. But if you scoop it and you're not weighing it, then you will have more in the white roast.

Jonathan:
So at Kraft coffee shops, Are they weighing their drip coffee, their pour over? So as far as caffeine, it's a wash.

Kelly:
For the most part. I mean, there are certain varietals that will have more than others. For example, Robusta, it's more, it's the genus, right? The whole kingdom phylum, blah, blah, blah. So the species is going to be, it's a lot more bitter. the Robusta than the Arabica. The reason that it's more bitter is because of the caffeine. Caffeine actually has a flavor and the flavor is bitter. So you're going to get a lot more bang for your buck. So like brands like Death Wish, right? It'll keep you awake. But it's not as flavorful, at least in my opinion, because it's got Robusta mixed in with it. And that brings out a lot more bitter flavors. But then within the varietals inside of Arabica, you'll probably have some that might be a little bit more caffeinated than others. And then I have one that we call Mini-Me, and it's actually a pea berry bean. And the pea berry bean, what happens is when the coffee cherries grow, you get two seeds together flat like a walnut inside. But in five to eight percent of the time, they never split. And you just have one a little bit more football shaped, smaller peaberry bean. And because it never split, it has a little bit more caffeine content than if it had split. And it does have a separate, a different flavor profile than the rest of that bush. So they used to see them as a defect and they would sort them off and not use them and discard them. But then they finally figured out, well, if it's five to eight percent of coffee cherries, worldwide, maybe we should see if they're any good. And I actually really like them. In fact, it was the Peaberry bean that drew me originally to Unleashed Coffee as a customer before I bought the company.

Jeffrey:
Oh, wow. Wow. So do you use Arabica beans only or do you use both? Yes. That's right.

Kelly:
Yes. I just use Arabica. I'm a certified Arabica Q grader. which I have to renew late this summer, but nobody knows what that is, but you'll know this. It's like the sommelier version of a coffee person, or in my sister's case, the bourbon steward, right? So I'm trained to look at green beans visually and all the senses, right? We're looking for defects visually, we're looking for defects in the smell, we're looking for defects in the taste. And we go through this grading process. And in order for it to be considered specialty coffee, it has to make 80 points or above. Otherwise, it's not specialty coffee. And it goes back down into the commodity grade, like Folgers and Maxwell House.

Jeffrey:
And speaking of green beans, you offer green beans to the home roaster.

Kelly:
I do. So that might be your next hobby, Jeffrey, is to start roasting green beans.

Jeffrey:
I've entertained the thought many, many times. Like winemaking, I decided I prefer to drink other people's wines because I know that I can't make one as good as they can. And I feel the same way about coffee roasting, although maybe I'd be better at coffee roasting. I definitely wouldn't be good at winemaking.

Jonathan:
Well, what sort of equipment do you need to roast coffee? You don't need that much. At home?

Jeffrey:
I've seen it.

Kelly:
You can use an AirPod machine. I mean, there's all kinds. That's why people ask me all the time. Well, how do I roast this at home? I'm like, well, it really depends on what you know, it's like I had an email just yesterday. Can you give me some tips? I just bought this Moondenovo from you. Can you give me some tips on some makings of profiles? And I went, well, I don't know what you're using. I mean, if you're using an AirPod machine, there's not a whole lot of science to it. You plug it in, you turn it on, you wait for it to turn brown, you take it out. Right. But then they also have like these little ceramic almost like a pot, and you can put the beans in there and just, you know, over the top of your stove.

Jonathan:
Kind of like popcorn.

Kelly:
Yeah, exactly. And there's another one very similar called the hive. And it's a dome. It's a metal dome, probably aluminum or something. And it does the same kind of thing. So it just kind of reminds me of that thing really reminds me of the old Jiffy Pop. Remember when you were kids, we used to have the Jiffy Pop? Yeah. So it's like that. I mean, technically, you could roast coffee over a you know, a campfire with something like that. But it doesn't you're not going to get an exact science out of it. Right. And then, like, I have a genie cafe, which I use a lot for sample roasting. And I have one profile that I use so that I get a medium roast so that when I'm doing testing on the coffees, testing quality to see, you know, if this is something that I want to purchase to bring in, then it's the same exact thing. But there's like, it's not hooked to a computer, so I can't watch the profile. And then, you know, you spend more money and more money, more money, eventually, you can get to one that actually tracks the profiles like the commercial roasters. So for home roasters, there's a ton of different ways to do it. So depending on what you're using, Um, I mean, I can give you temperature guides. You want to make sure you're getting to certain temperatures and you want to get to certain colors and you want, you're looking for certain smells. But as far as an actual profile on a popcorn machine, there's no, you know, there's no graph, right?

Jeffrey:
But you, you offer some great beans like Brazilian geisha. That's delicious being in, uh, couture.

Kelly:
And that's a micro lot. So that one is, you know, I only had, he brought in, Three bags, I think, and I bought them all.

Jeffrey:
Yeah, that's a rare bean. That is a rare bean, I know. Yes. And red bourbon, couture bourbon.

Kelly:
Bourbon. When it's coffee, it's a bourbon.

Jeffrey:
Bourbon. Well, I prefer to use my French accent. Bourbon. So that's to differentiate it from the alcoholic beverage?

Kelly:
I would assume, yeah. Either that or it's this.

Jeffrey:
Yes, I had not heard it pronounced that way, bourbon. But from now on, that's it.

Kelly:
Well, it's funny because one time I posted, I was doing sample roasting of red verbones and I posted it and I had people go, you're doing bourbon?

Jonathan:
And I'm like, no. Now, Kelly, where can one learn more about coffee and how to prepare it?

Kelly:
Oh, we do webinars. Oh, you do? I do. In fact, we just launched a webinar series. So we have a how to brew coffee at home because a lot of people, unlike Jeffrey, they haven't figured out how to brew it nicely at home. They'll make the trip to Starbucks or Dunkin' or whatever chain coffee place because they don't feel like they can do a good job. Or they'll have a Keurig at home. you know, you don't have a lot of control over what comes out of that. And you just drink the coffee. But whatever comes out of your Keurig never tastes like what you get at Starbucks, right? So people just give up and they don't make coffee at home. But making coffee, so everybody who has their fingers on those beans from the time it's planted to the time it's in your cup, can affect the flavor. So the farmer can do something that affects the flavor when it goes when it's harvested and goes to processing that affects the flavor. When it comes to me, the roaster, I affect the flavor. And then when it goes to the final person who's going to brew it, whether it's you or somebody, you know, a barista, you don't want to be the one that screws up all the work that before you did. Right. So I came out with a webinar series. And the first one in the series is Home Brewing 101. And we talk about five different brewing styles. So pour over, iced coffee versus cold brew, French press, and AeroPress. And all of these are things that you can use at home that are not some super expensive espresso machine. Because a home espresso machine, a good one, could be upwards from $1,000. And not everybody wants to spend that for a coffee pot, right? But with a simple pour over, if you have a good kettle, you're in good shape. So there's little things that you can do that will really improve the output of your cup. And you don't want to be the one that changes that flavor to something not palatable. So just simple tips like how to store it properly. You should never store it in the freezer or the refrigerator. And a lot of people do that. But it can bring moisture in and really affect the flavor. Temperature that's too hot will give you a bitter cup. Temperature that's too cold when you brew it will give you a sour cup. So just small tips and tricks that kind of fine tune, you know, you know, water goes over grounds and that's how you make coffee. But little little tips and tricks to really dial it in.

Jeffrey:
And Unleashed is, of course, a farm to cup coffee roaster. Very important. Yes. Very conscientious, very concerned about the farmers. concerned about the environment. And I understand that all of your beans go through a sun-dried natural processing.

Kelly:
Is that correct? All of the Brazils do. All the Brazil beans do. Okay. Yes. So in Brazil, much like California where I am, there's not a lot of rain. Um, so it's really easy for them to do the sun dried process. So after they harvest the beans, they either put them on drying beds or, uh, concrete patios, and then they just keep raking them and turning them. Basically they're turning them into raisins, right? The cherries and tell that fruit dries up and it takes a couple of weeks. And then, um, eventually the dried fruit gets hold and it's prepared for export. But in countries like Guatemala, where they have more than enough rain, When I went there, it rained the whole time. They use more of a wash process. So within eight hours to 12 hours after the beans are harvested from the trees, they go to a wet mill and they have a wet mill process that removes that pulp from the beans, and then they go to a drying process where just the mucilage is left, and then eventually that gets hold. But that process can be very, very wasteful in water, which is why countries like Brazil don't use it, because they don't have the plethora of rain. So, and it does change the flavor, whether it's dry or wet process.

Jonathan:
Well, Kelly, this has been a really lovely conversation. Enlightening. And we're very thankful that you have this online course to educate people about proper usage and preparation of coffee. And congrats on the company and the availability is nationwide online. Yes.

Jeffrey:
And how can you access that?

Kelly:
UnleashCoffee.com. Of course, we're on all the socials, Instagram, Facebook, YouTube, all the things. Not Snapchat. I got rid of Snapchat. I'm too old for Snapchat.

Jonathan:
No, who cares about that? But our audience should know it's our coffee of choice. So thank you so much, Kelly. And thanks for being our guest.

Kelly:
Thank you for having me. This was a lot of fun. Thanks, Kelly.

Jonathan:
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