The Culinary Lifer with Charles Baum (S4 E4)

# AI Transcript: TCGP S4 E4 Charles Baum Transcript.  Please excuse any typos

Announcer:
Jonathan Pogash is the cocktail guru, a mixologist and hospitality expert. Ah, see? You know big words. Dude, I'm the cocktail guru. Cheers. Jeffrey's his dad, a wine and spirits author, historian, and consultant.

Jeffrey:
So, I do my homework.

Announcer:
With decades of experience, they're always looking for the next big thing. Join this father and son duo for a few laughs as they explore the hottest trends in hospitality with the service industry's leading trailblazers and tastemakers. Welcome to the Cocktail Guru Show.

Jonathan:
Okay, well, dad, another meaty episode we have today. And I know you're very excited. You've been preparing for this for a little while.

Jeffrey:
I'm very excited because many of our interviews are just that, just interviews without any real personal involvement. This is an interview where I have had a great deal of personal involvement. over the years, starting in 1960, when I was, what, about nine years old?

Jonathan:
Yeah, yeah, you've told me stories about how your parents, my grandparents, would bring you to, you know, lavish meals in big cities around the country, isn't that right?

Jeffrey:
Well, not necessarily lavish meals, but they would take me to really good restaurants.

Jonathan:
And that's how you became a foodie?

Jeffrey:
And I believe that's one of the reasons why I am in the business I'm in today and why I love restaurants the way I do. And the guest that we are about to interview is someone I had been wanting to meet for a long time. And fate has an interesting way of bringing people together because there was an event in New York with none other than Dale DeGroff, a great friend and mixologist. father of the modern cocktail renaissance, and that's how I met this gentleman face to face at this particular event. So it's cocktails and Dale DeGroff that brought us together, and he is an instrumental part of this entire interview and story, and he is a photographer. He is a man about town. He is a fellow menu collector. And that's one of the subjects we will talk about, menus, of course. But he is the son of one of the greats of the restaurant industry, someone I liken to César Ritz and Auguste Escoffier, two of the great influences in modern in modern cuisine, in the modern culinary world, in the restaurant world. And he is the son of Mr. Joe Baum, who to me is one of the greatest innovators of the 20th century in terms of restaurants and cuisine.

Jonathan:
Charlie Baum, welcome to the Cocktail Guru podcast. How are you, my friend?

Charles:
I'm delighted to be with you guys today.

Jeffrey:
Thank you, Charlie. Thank you. Boy, it's hard to know where to begin.

Jonathan:
But of course... Let's start from the beginning, Charlie. Where did you grow up? How was your upbringing? And what brought you into the world that you are in today? There you go.

Charles:
Okay. Well, there's a simple question. I'm just joking.

Jonathan:
You don't have to answer all of that, but just maybe to give a little background.

Charles:
I have answers to all of that, but I'll edit along the way. Growing up in my family was, to say the least, a food-friendly family. And from the time, as early as I can remember, visiting, my grandparents had a hotel in Saratoga Springs, New York. Oh, that's where I went to college. Oh, there you go. So it was on Broadway where the Holiday Inn, unfortunately, It somehow got a hold of the space and tore the hotel down. However, so my father was always in the hotel kitchen, et cetera, et cetera. And he had a great romance in the kitchens and with the staff there, which has been pretty well documented. So they kind of passed through genetically and by experience to my family, which of course was my parents and my brother and sister. So there was always food adventures in the house. And I'll tell you that the time I was probably five or six, even going back earlier, when I was about three or so. We lived in Florida for a bit. My father was working for a group of hotels called the Shine Hotels. I remember Christmas, the lobbies of the hotels were phenomenally decorated. It was great excitement. And of course, that what came home on Christmas morning was after the cookie and milk setup was in our kitchen. And the food adventure really began for me around there because it was some incredible display of cookies and there was a bite taken out of everything, et cetera, et cetera. But I began to have experiences that were closer to the hotels and the lobbies and the people that work there and in the kitchens and so forth. So by the time we moved north, to New Jersey somewhere around 1955, 56 maybe, 57, somewhere in there. My father started commuting pretty regularly to the city, but along the way was the Newark airport. So that's where I really had my first, I think, great awareness of the excitement, the pleasures of hospitality, not in a very sophisticated way, obviously, but I just, I loved, loved being in the restaurant.

Jonathan:
And was that the Newarker?

Charles:
That was the Newarker.

Jonathan:
First of all, when I saw this menu that my dad is holding up right now, the Newarker menu, which was a full-scale restaurant at Newark airport, I had a hard time saying the word Newarker, first of all.

Charles:
I agree.

Jonathan:
It just doesn't roll off the tongue. But also secondly, in my mind, I'm like, how can something like this be recreated today? in like, is it even possible with the way hospitality, the way the restaurants and in airports are? I mean, it was it was quite a thing, quite a scene. Am I right?

Charles:
Well, it became a destination restaurant. So the people that that dine there had no intention or need to fly wherever, you know, during during their time in the restaurant. That's why they were there. But I was you know, I can remember when I was probably five, six, seven. I'm spending a lot of time in there. And of course, a lot of attention was paid to my father's family table. But I just thought that was the experience everybody had. So I said, you know, this is fun.

Jeffrey:
So- Now, Charlie, you lived in South Orange at the time, correct?

Charles:
Yes.

Jeffrey:
And I lived in Maplewood.

Charles:
Oh, that's right. We're bordered over, right?

Jeffrey:
Yeah. And I went to the Newarker with my father. I don't think I ever ate there. I'm not sure. But I went there with my father, because I know he would go to visit. He was involved with restaurant associates. And I know that at one point, I visited the Newarker with him, because he would take me to the airport from time to time to see the planes fly. And I remember once visiting this lavish restaurant at the airport, which was called the Newarker. And boy, what a menu they had, too. This was your father's, it was his first project, I believe. His first project out of Florida, yeah. Yeah, and it was a full-scale fine dining establishment with a very extensive menu. I'm looking at the menu now, and I can't imagine repeating the only, restaurants in New York City, for example, would have menus like this.

Charles:
Pretty sophisticated for its time. And I think on that menu is where you probably will see the first appearance of the three-clawed lobster. Yes. And a dozen oysters came with another, they're called knife and fork oysters, I believe, on that menu.

Jeffrey:
Yes.

Charles:
And I think there was a baker's dozen. There was maybe another one on a separate, plated separately from the dozen. So It was kind of a nice act of generosity.

Jonathan:
And the drinks, I mean, a $0.90 martini, I'll take one of those any day.

Charles:
Think how many you could have at $0.90. This was a $0.75 martini.

Jeffrey:
OK, I thought there was something that was, oh, $0.90 whiskey sour, even better. Yeah, but the Manhattan was $0.75, the Daiquiri all, oh, the Scotch Sour was $0.90.

Charles:
And is that, I don't have, I can't conceptualize inflation, is that inexpensive for the time or is that kind of... I don't know what the multiple would be now to give an equivalent, but I would imagine that in the 50s, there are a lot of places where cocktails were $0.50, $0.60.

Jonathan:
And the equivalent, the modern day, well, first of all, there is no modern day equivalent to an establishment like that. The closest might be, you know, a fancy Delta Sky Lounge or something. But not even, you know?

Jeffrey:
No, no, not even close.

Charles:
Well, clearly, dining opportunities have changed in airports, as we well know.

Jeffrey:
No, you have to go to some really upscale steakhouse or other great restaurant in Manhattan to find something like this. Yeah. And by the way, let me just mention that as part of this menu, this is an important point about Joe Baum's creativity and his influence in the industry. Under the dessert specialties, it says, Newarker original, stuffed crepe amoureuse, which means love, full of love, flambé.

Charles:
Wow. Now that- Joe had a thing in those days for flaming desserts.

Jeffrey:
Yeah, exactly. Well, he was the king of flaming desserts at TableSide, was he not?

Charles:
The crepes were, I remember very distinctly there, the crepes were prepared tableside. And the reason is, I remember that when I was maybe in first, second grade or so, Joe invited all of our teachers of the time. My sister was a couple of grades ahead. My brother was too young at the time, but anyway, I invited various teachers to come have lunch at the Nuremberg and, you know, some prime table overlooking the runways, et cetera. And Dimitris, whose name was ironically Mr. Charles, came tableside and prepared crepe Suzette. And he was doing all the appropriate showy things. And when it came time to flip the crepe, he was two or three feet above the pan. He got distracted by a noise somewhere, turned his head, and the crepe landed upon his shoes. Oh, no. As sophisticated a six or seven-year-old I was, I thought that was the funniest thing I ever saw. I fell off the banquette laughing.

Jeffrey:
Well, at least it didn't land on somebody's head. Yeah, it was great. Yeah. And I think Joe Baum also was known for flambés in form of the 12 Caesars as well. Yes.

Jonathan:
Let's talk about the other places. I think there was a jump to venues in New York City, correct?

Charles:
Yes. The Forum is a good example, venue-wise. It's always been notorious for the language and the design of all the tabletop, but particularly the menu and the front of the menu and the size of the menu and the scale of the, I don't know if you have one that you can read a couple of items from, but it's, we would consider today to be extremely over the top.

Jeffrey:
Yes. And he, he brought in furniture from all over the world, did he not? And designers who, very high level designers.

Charles:
William Pullman maybe was the designer there. Yeah.

Jeffrey:
Yeah, who were responsible for really over-the-top decor, over-the-top food. I mean, everything about it was, but he brought in great specialists who knew precisely what he wanted to do.

Jonathan:
That's interesting because that's the norm with fine dining now, but it wasn't before and he's kind of ahead on that trend.

Charles:
One of the things that, and again, the forum's a good example. a vast amount of research went into the history of Roman dining and what would be, I guess, translatable into something that was contemporary, while still kind of honoring the tradition a bit, but taking it further and further and further. And that was part of the the personality of that place. The food was substantial there. I remember huge portions.

Jeffrey:
We're talking about, hmm, what year are we talking about?

Charles:
They're large anyway.

Jeffrey:
Yeah. But the Newarker was 19, what, 50?

Charles:
Five, six, maybe.

Jeffrey:
Yeah. And then the form of the 12 Caesars, well, I believe it was 59. That comes before the Four Seasons. The Four Seasons came about in 1959.

Charles:
Yeah, 59, 60. And the Forum, I think, was earlier that year. Could have been 58 or 59. But around the same time.

Jonathan:
Where was the Forum located?

Charles:
The Forum, I think, was on 48th or 9th Street. Essentially, it was part of Rockefeller Center. Right. So it was between the Plaza and 6th Avenue on the north side of the street. And interestingly enough, I believe it was a steakhouse, maybe somewhere five to 10 years ago came in. And I don't know what became of the place up to that time, but as they were doing some careful renovation, they took off a wall and underneath it was a tile mural of some Roman scene that was built for the form of the 12th season. So the excavation exposed still some of the history. I don't know what became of it.

Jeffrey:
But I think the great revolution in terms of the culinary world came about, did it not, at the Four Seasons, where your father insisted on American products, on only serving fresh products?

Charles:
Yeah, that was kind of, I would say, the earliest not the onlyest, but the earliest, I would say, and very high-end dining, farm to table. And before it was, in all due respect, before it kind of found its way to California, not too long afterwards. But yeah, they dealt very much with a lot of local farmers, et cetera. And amongst other fascinating stories about the research and the delivery of food and where it came from, there was a mushroom farm somewhere upstate in New York, probably not too far up, from where the various types of mushrooms were collected and then brought into the restaurant. And the person who collected the mushrooms was none other than John Cage.

Jeffrey:
The composer, wow. Wow. I studied John Cage in college. Yes. I don't think Jonathan really knows much about him. Very few people do know about him.

Charles:
I could tell by Jonathan's expression, you're very slightly not trying to- I'm sorry.

Jonathan:
I do not. But to get out of the conversation, I'm going to take a quick pause. We are going to take a quick pause and we're going to come right back. At the Cocktail Guru, it's all about the experience. We want our clients to taste and feel the aroma, the temperature, the flavor, to make memories when they try our cocktails. The Cocktail Guru was born in 2006, when there was a need for high-quality cocktails, bartender training, and expertly crafted drinks for special events. Then, the Guru team moved to Massachusetts and expanded nationally. We even provide cocktail demonstrations on morning television institutions, like the Today Show. Consider the Guru team for all of your events. Corporate clients enjoy our entertaining team-building exercises. Bachelorette mixology classes are fun for everyone. We can craft a signature cocktail bar for any occasion. Plus, the Guru team can design cost-effective beverage programs with staff training for any bar or restaurant. And be sure to join us for the Cocktail Guru podcast, where we regularly interview some of the hospitality industry's best. So why not consider the Cocktail Guru for your next project? Cheers. Okay, and now we're back.

Jeffrey:
Well, John Cage did, if I remember, I'm getting the time mixed up. He did something called three minutes and 45 seconds, or something akin to that. Could have been two minutes and 50 seconds, four, I don't know. But he did a piece with that title, and it's somebody sitting on a stool for that length of time doing nothing.

Charles:
Maybe they were thinking about dining.

Jeffrey:
Well, what he wanted people to do was listen, just listen to the ambient sounds.

Charles:
This we have to do part two and three, but there's stories about where a guy named Wally Cedar, Wally Heider, who was a an interesting guy. He was a very early part of with Moog of electronic music, experimenting and development. And somehow he got to my father to address the potential of having ambient sound in the restaurant. Never happened, but it was again, one of those, you know, out there considerations amongst a lot of others.

Jonathan:
And after the forum and Four Seasons, what came next?

Charles:
Then there was La Fonda del Sol, of course.

Jonathan:
Sorry? Sorry, a move further uptown?

Charles:
Not quite. Not quite. Yeah, there you go. Jeffrey's holding that, the La Fonda manual, which has become extremely collectible and a rarity.

Jonathan:
La Fonda.

Charles:
Yeah, La Fonda del Sol, and it was the ground floor of what was called the Time-Life Building, which I guess was on 50th? Yes. Right, just in the corner of 6th Avenue. So it's still in the immediate neighborhood. So on the top floor of that building was another restaurant called the Tower Suite. which was certainly a different kind. It was a little more of a formal place, but that's where the, as we laugh about it now, where Joe had all the servers and the captains in particular introduced themselves to the guests. Hi, my name is Fred.

Jonathan:
No one had ever done that before. That's breaking a fourth wall.

Charles:
Well, I don't know, but it certainly got attention and we have him to thank for that. I'm afraid to say, but yeah, there you go.

Jonathan:
Well, when I used to, one of my first jobs was as a server at Johnny Rockets, which used to be in malls all over the country. Not so much anymore. But our big thing was very much breaking down the fourth wall. And I would sit down next to my customers at their booth. I'd say, oh, can I just squeeze in here? And then I would take their order and chat with them. And that was kind of like a thing.

Charles:
That's friendly.

Jonathan:
Very friendly. Yeah.

Charles:
But this Lofondo to me was one of the talk about pleasure palaces, it was just the interior, the architecture, there's folk art, you could see the menu, the colorful, it was an open kitchen into part of one area of the dining room, which it's been also well documented where a lot of the grilling took place. And so servers could come pick up food in front of the guests and they'd go wherever, wherever. But it was an extraordinary place. And I'm sad to see that go, but I would say of all the places that I went to eat, family-wise, that was the place, where else could we go there? So it was just a fabulous, fabulous experience.

Jeffrey:
My mother took me there because she loved Central and South American food. She used to make, you'll laugh, but she used to make tacos for me on a regular basis, but we would have other things too. And only she and myself would enjoy this food. My father and my brother only wanted meat and potatoes, nothing exotic. So she would take me to restaurants for this reason, because she loved them. She wanted to explore La Fonda del Sol as soon as it opened in 1960. That's the restaurant I was referring to earlier when I was nine years old. We would take the train into Hoboken and then take the PATH train into Manhattan. And then we would go to Bloomingdale's where she would shop. And then she took me to La Fonda del Sol, which was my second fine dining establishment. The first one she took me to was Le Vaudor. But this one was splashy and huge and just full of excitement. And it made a tremendous impression on me. And I think it's what caused me to continue exploring food and restaurants. and it was revolutionary for its time because how many restaurants were serving South American and Central American food.

Charles:
Not to mention, yeah, notably Pisco Sours.

Jeffrey:
And the cocktails, yeah, yeah. Pisco Sour, it's spelled S-A-W-E-R on this menu.

Charles:
Well, it's probably a rare part of the Latin language somewhere that- Yes.

Jeffrey:
someone that listens to it. And it says a Peruvian brandy sour, $1.25. And then there was tequila con sangrita, margarita, sangria maria, cocktail del mono, which was anise, cognac, lime, and bitters, tasco fizz, San Martin secco, Algarobina cocktail, Champagne ananas, champagne with a pineapple, and Cocktail Alegria, which was pisco, Cointreau, and apricot brandy. Really interesting lineup. Now there are others too, too numerous to mention. It was quite a list of drinks and food.

Charles:
It was just incredible.

Jonathan:
That is quite a menu for those who are watching. Take a look at that. Oh, my God. We'll have some still shots on the website.

Charles:
But this menu is very impressive. They had done a huge amount of research throughout Latin America by travel. where this is all under development, which was like one of his things to be, you know, whatever. In terms of authenticity, et cetera, in a lot of the places, they were on the road a lot with a team of players that would do a lot of the research and testing, et cetera.

Jonathan:
And so that we can get to all of the notable locations and venues, what came next throughout the 60s, 70s?

Charles:
Well, quickly, at about the same time, the original Brasserie, also in the Sequence Building, opened, opened 24-7, which was also great fun. And what was then known as the Pan Am Building. There were three restaurants on the concourse. There was, on the 40, Third street side, maybe. Anyway, it was something called the Trattoria. which is a very kind of bold and Italian, not ciphertical at a bistro, but a great fun restaurant. Next to it was Zum Zum, which was the kind of fast food, every verse you could think of was served there with, you know, a great line, it must have been a great menu of beers, et cetera. And then something called Pomeroyville's Tavern, which was a kind of a tavern experience. But anyway, the three of them all kind of came up at the same time. And that was kind of through the 60s. And then, where are we going to go to the 70s?

Jeffrey:
And there was the Rainbow Room.

Charles:
Well, 70s, the whole Trade Center complex was being developed.

Jeffrey:
Yes, absolutely.

Charles:
So there were a number of restaurants, not just windows in the world. But there was something called the Big Kitchen on the concourse floor, which was designed, I'm pretty sure, by Milton Glaser. And it was a food court, and that was also very, very early in food court days. But the food court was all under the same aegis of my father and all the restaurants that they designed, developed, and opened in the Trade Center. But obviously, you know, then there was various other smaller spots and various floors throughout. But the windows, of course, was the big deal. And that opened in 76, I believe.

Jeffrey:
Yes. And I was a regular there, too, because I was a member of the World Trade Center Club. Well, I knew you looked familiar when we first. Which allowed me to go to the World Trade Center for breakfast. Uh-huh. Because it was not open for breakfast. Windows on the World was not open for breakfast.

Charles:
That's right. But there was a lot of landmark things that happened in that restaurant as well besides Kevin Zirilli's appearance. One of the restaurants within the restaurant was called the O'Durverie and it was kind of international food, but there was sushi served there in 76 and onwards. Anyway, et cetera, et cetera.

Jeffrey:
But that too, Windows on the World, was a tribute to American food. Yes. And American wine and fresh ingredients. That's correct.

Charles:
Correct. Yeah. And then from there, 70s, 80s, Aurora opened. Yes. That was in 1986. Yeah. In the meantime, I think there was a lot of consulting going around the country. exotic places, developing restaurants for clients, etc. But then there was Aurora, and then while Aurora was still open, Rainbow was in development, and then Rainbow opened, I believe the openings parties were in December of 1988.

Jeffrey:
And it's Aurora, that location where I met Dale DeGroff. Right. I think I had known Dale before that. I had met him along the way, but I wasn't into cocktails. I was still representing the wine producers of Alsace at that time. But I went to Aurora to try to sell Alsace wine to the wine buyer. How'd you do? Well, I was told the wine buyer wasn't there. Of course. I was about to walk out and then I saw this fellow come in and he introduced himself as Dale DeGroff and said he'd be happy to speak with me. But he wasn't the Weibart, but he'd be happy to speak for me. And we talked about cocktails, of all things, cocktails, and what they were doing at Aurora. And he was telling me about the Rainbow Room Project. And it was at that moment that I started getting interested in cocktails. It was really at that very moment.

Jonathan:
I thought it was when I started in the industry. That's what you've always said. You've always said that you were never into spirits and cocktails until I started working in bars. Actively. Explain yourself.

Jeffrey:
I'll explain myself. When I spoke to Dale, we started talking about history, cocktail history, Jerry Thomas. So that's what drew me in, not the actual production of a cocktail.

Jonathan:
All right.

Jeffrey:
That's okay.

Jonathan:
If it was anyone other than Dale DeGroff, I would be more upset.

Charles:
Right. Well, interestingly enough, as you probably know, that Joe introduced Dale to Jerry Thomas.

Jeffrey:
Yes, that's why we can honestly say, without Joe Bowne, there would be no Dale DeGroff today, as we know him.

Charles:
Kind, generous, and I accept.

Jeffrey:
Dale would agree with that, too.

Charles:
Exactly, I'm having lunch with Dale tomorrow. Not tomorrow, but Friday in the city. Well, please give him our very best.

Jeffrey:
I shall.

Charles:
You said you guys were decent, so I should go along and do it.

Jeffrey:
Well, Joe is the one who mentored Dale and was the one who suggested that Dale delve into the history of Cochran and Jerry Thomas in particular to recreate them for the Rainbow Room. Correct.

Jonathan:
Yeah. Well, well, gentlemen, we just have a couple more minutes, believe it or not, left in our in our episode.

Jeffrey:
No, I don't believe it.

Jonathan:
What do you say to that?

Charles:
I say we'll just have another break in commercial and come back.

Jonathan:
I know. We could definitely do a part two sometime. So after the Rainbow Room, the success, I presume there were other consulting projects and all of that across the country?

Charles:
Yeah, I would say, you know, then, you know, Windows, then there was Windows 2, which there was kind of a little break in between. But, you know, Rainbow was just not the Rainbow Room. Obviously, the Promenade Bar was there, Rainbow and Stars, which was our cabaret, and there was the Business Club, and there's a lot of other things going on there. So that was pretty consuming, figuratively and literally. for those of us who are lucky enough to work there and to be there. And then, I'm not sure when the second Windows came in with, again, Milton Glaser designed a lot of the graphics, certainly at Rainbow and also at Windows too. And I don't quite remember what year the second Rainbow, sorry, the second Windows opened, but that must have been also in the summer of the mid-90s.

Jeffrey:
But at that time, I was able to sit down with your father and speak to him. I was able to do that a couple of times. And that was still before I was heavily into cocktails, as I am now. But also, there was a project that I had forgotten about called the American Restaurant in Kansas City. Yeah. With Chef Bradley Ogden. Yes. That was something I had completely forgotten about.

Charles:
Well, anyway, there's a lot of legacy and a lot of wonderful people that work with show. And I was certainly lucky enough to be there for a lot of it. And it's great to celebrate all those good things with you guys.

Jonathan:
It's quite a legacy that Joe left. And I'm glad that You're here and you're able to delve into it and dissect it a little bit more with us. And we're very grateful for the conversation, Charlie.

Charles:
Thanks for the opportunity.

Jeffrey:
We need to do much more on this topic because this is about the restaurant revolution in the United States. So it definitely deserves much more time, and we're giving it now. So we will have a part two, I hope, and possibly a part three. Thank you very much, Charles.

Charles:
Thanks so much. I have some ideas for further conversation, but anyway, today's been great.

Jeffrey:
Fantastic.

Charles:
Thank you, and take care.

Jeffrey:
Hope I see you all soon. Bye. Take care. Bye-bye, Charlie.

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